Swaging questions

[arenyi]

Thanks!
Practically I will not measure the rig: will dismantle the old shrouds one at a time, put it in the local rigger's workshop and order "the same" and check the new shrouds by compare with the olds.
Bob, please send me the commercial name and manufacturer of the polysulfide caulk.

Thanks again

A. Renyi

As swaging is the working of one metal onto and into the gaps of another, and relying on the metal to metal contact for strength-it amazes me that goo would be even considered. Have seen test results and any goo reduces the ultimate strength of the swage.
Stick to the old-timer method of beeswax melted into the swage AFTER swaging. Still the best way to go, all other methods are SCARY!

[Bob Pingel]

I would use polysulphide caulk -- like BoatLife. Dip the wire and swage away. It is important to keep water out.

Bob
.

[Bob Pingel]

By adding sealant unswaged, the sealant is pushed throughout the swage.

By dripping in wax, the "seal" is only on the the very top.


I haven't seen any studies where sealant impacted strength, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I deal with one of the best swagers in the country and they dip.

Bob

I have to interject here - I rigged here in San Francisco with a major boatyard, with a well respected rig shop, for several years - and - we NEVER dipped, sealed, or slathered anything on the wire before swaging - or afterwards. In regards to the "protection" of the inside of the swage with goo - after swaging there isn't really much of an "inside" to protect - if you cut apart a swage there shouldn't be much more than solid metal - maybe trace lines of the wire strands, but it's not like there are channels in there that are going to rust out on you. We also avoided and had our customers avoid putting anything on their standing rigging, swages, wire and all, becuase application of anything hastens the onset of stainless deterioration, which occurs in the absence of oxygen. In my humble experience, the best care for sawges was regular rinsing with fresh water and careful examination throughout the seasons - and a realistic expectation of how long it should all last. This is the opposite of galvanized mild steel, which you would want to wrap up and seal away in tar, yes. I think the best protection for stainless steel, though, is fresh water - lots of it.

[Bob Pingel]

The idea is too keep salt water out, I wouldn't worry about fresh water.

As far as the different opinions, I'll chalk it up to "differnt ships, different long splices".

Maybe Brion has some solid tech reasons. I do know that he has wire dipped before swaging, and uses sealant in StaLoks.

Bob

[Brion Toss]

Hello,
I also would like to see any evidence of sealant affecting swage strength. It would have to be really compelling, because I definitely have seen assiduously drip-waxed swages splitting open from internal corrosion in the tropics, the same territory where sealed swages stay just fine. Show me the numbers.
ps,
There also seems to be a logical disconnect between metal-to-metal integrity and the effect of internal sealant in a swage; with Sta-loks and Hayn's, for instance, we've seen reliable test results up at or near the wire's actual break strength, even though the compression on these fittings is far less than with any swage.

[Brian Duff]

So...? is the answer, or concensus anyway, that the sealant doesn't hurt strength (as suggested by Brions' comments on Low-Compression mechanical fittings), but may or may not effect longevity depending on weather or not oxygen/salt/water isolation is better than free supply of water/salt, and on down facing terminals oxygen ?
Or , as I have notice when cutting swaged fittings open to inspect, there really isn't any room left inside the swage once it if swaged. I have noticed on new swages when cut open that I can hardly discern the outline of just some of the strands, as it all appears one solid rod, even when sanded and polished or cut rough. I must admit that I have not cut an older swage open in a while, but I will next time I come accross an example of both kinds, and post my results here. At our shop we do not use any sealant in any swage fittings we press, unless we are un-able to talk an adamant owner out of this practice.

One should note that the 'excellent' Hi-Mod Low Compression mechanical fitting Brion mentions only reccomends using a thread locker adhesive for final assembly, and not sealant, if I recall the directions properly... I must admit I only read directions for fittings I use regularly , on occasion, as opposed to every time I open one, as that would be really time consming considering the normally repetitive nature of instructions for the same fitting :: )

very interested in the results of this discussion, as I feel that every one of us should know the answer to this question.

[toolowd]

I will say that the Hayn insulators that I installed last fall are a wonderfully designed bit of functional art.

rich morpurgo

[arenyi]

I thought that I asked a simple question, but I see, even Brion doesn't have a simple answer.
I sliced my old swages (around eight years old) to learn what happened inside.
In the first slice, around 4 mm from the top the wires were very rusty. There is no doubt that it is the time to replaceÖ..
In the second slice, around 8 mm from the top, the metal was clear; however three rust dots were seen in the space between the wires. Is it "local" rust, or just dirty water that penetrated from the upper parts? I don't know. Anyhow, it is evident that internal sealant would eliminate this by filling the space between the wires.
The third slice, around 15 mm from the top, was absolutely clear.
Since the wires always break near the open end of the swage, I am not sure if the internal sealant can -for long term- really seal the open end of the swage and if water can penetrate under the seal, the situation may deteriorate.
I asked two local riggers and ñnaturally- both replied that they are "working exactly according the manufacturer's instructions, and they don't require any sealing".
It may be very interesting to see professional cutting of old swages, microscope photos and explanation of an expert in metallurgy. Maybe this was done by one of the swaging machine manufacturers?