Amsteel Halyard splice to shackle

[allene]

I am working on a halyard using 1/4 amsteel blue on the top half. I want to provide a cover over the last foot or two where the shackle is. I plan on using the cover off 7/16 double braid for this. I also want to splice to the shackle and have this cover provide some relief for the shackle splice.

I am thinking I will insert the down end of the cover into the core (about a foot from the eye). The other end has me perplexed.

I can imagine just putting the cover over the amsteel and doing an eye splice like this: http://www.samsonrope.com/site_files/12S_C2_EyeSpl.pdf but inserting both braids inside the amsteel core.

Or, I could treat it like double braid and do a traditional double braid eye splice. This cover should have some strength and the amsteel is stronger than a traditional double braid core but I fear there is some reason I don't know about that makes this a bad idea.

Anyone know the correct way to accomplish this?

Allen

[allene]

Well, no replies so I thought I would put out what I am going to do and see if anyone wants to correct me. I can always re-do the splice so no harm will be done.

I am going to splice a 2 foot section of cover to the end of the amsteel using the technique from stripping a cover from class II double braid. Then I will do a class II double braid eye splice on the combination amsteel - LS cover with the shackle inside the eye.

I will reply with how it comes out

[jeffh]

Hi,
Thought I'd chime in as I've had some experience with what you're proposing. 'while I don't have the specs on what kind of halyard you're constructing (ie main, headsail or spinnaker), the 1/4" amsteel will after all be the "laboring oar" that is to say it will be carrying the entire load of the application. In this regard (again assuming) the double braid will be "integrated" into the eye/shackle for chafe uv protection.
I've found that on the halyards I've stripped the cover off of (main, headsail and spinnaker) that chafe protection is usually unnecessary. Primarily I've found this to be the case as the core (as opposed to the core and cover) is at such a reduced diameter that it actual chafes less than the core and cover.
The preceeding assumes that the sheave is the proper one for the type of cordage you've been employing. In this regard many of the applications I've done had originally employed wire to rope halyards, with the sheaves being configured with a sharper "v" shape to keep the wire from jumping. These type of sheave configurations will tend to chew up a naked core and would require some sort of chafe protection in the section of. Having said all that if the sheave(s) that you're looking at now are designed for wire rope they should be changed out for cordage anyway.
I believe that if you're going to attach some double braid cover that 7/16" may be a little too large for a 1/4" core, a better fit would be 3/8" LS, STA-Set braid etc.
For the stripped cover exposure to UV (while the boat is moored) I've just taken the cover that I stripped off the core and when securing the halyards after sailing, attached the old cover to the halyard shackle and hoisted the same to the exit box that way all the stripped portion of the halyard remains inside the mast and out of the sun.
The way I've found that works the best for what you're trying to do is simply make a locked brummel (I like Brion, have never forgotten to insert a closed bale shackle while forming an eye ha ha)
with the shackle inserted (if it's an open screw pin type you can insert it as you're drawing up the locked brummel) bury a length of at least 48 tapered diameters (1 ft. for 1/4" line) and you should be good to go without the integration of any cover material.
What your proposing seems to be a core to core splice (covered) after you've already stripped of the cover which seems a little like doubling the work you've got to do to achieve the same end result.
I'll quit rambling.
all the best

[allene]

You have given me a lot to think about, thanks.

To describe my application more, the boat (built in 1955) is wood as is the mast so everything is external. The halyard is being flown off a spinnaker block and will fly an unhanked 150. We can't use spinnakers in our class but that is the only rule. The block is an antique, wood with bronze shiev. I would have replaced it but wasn't sure if I was going to use wire or rope and still not sure what I am doing is what I will end up with.

Anyway, the shackle I have is closed so I need to either put an open thimble, or as I was thinking, use the cover to allow me to not use a thimble at all. Maybe that isn't possible and I should buy a new shackle, I don't know.

I also want the cover for protection in case this halyard rubs against the headstay. This is a really unusual application and I am nervous about all aspects of it.

Perhaps I bought the wrong size LS. I will find out today when I try and make it all work.

Allen

[Brion Toss]

Hello,
Jeff had some good suggestions; I'll just add the possibility of a "Dutch Hat", which is a short piece of cover that the core is threaded through before splicing. The core goes in a couple of inches from one end, and out a couple of inches from the other. This results in a couple of little wings, hence the term.
If you also thread the core into a section of cover before splicing, you'll have a cover for the standing part near the end. Typically we'll pull on 4 to 6 feet, with the core going in about a foot from the standing part side, so you will have a tail to bury later.
When both pieces of cover are on, make your splice. Then slide the standing part cover up as far as practicable, then taper the ears a bit and lay them down and serve or whip or tape over them. Finally, bury the cover tail in the standing part.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[Brian Duff]

What I do is to install the cover on your core line where ever you want it with a short tail of cover hanging free toward the standing part of the line, as Brion said, to insert the cover into the core line as a termination of the covered section. Then just do the regular hi mod double briad splice, which is a core to core splice with the eye covered by ...cover. I normally upgrade the look of the splice by buring the tail of the cover from the eye inside the cover of the line creating a splice that looks very much like a double braid line splice. This does however weaken the spice by perhaps 8-10% (based on testing at Yale Cordage) but often the look is more important, and the safety factor high enough to tolerate this change.

Although it is common to not use thimbles for attaching shackles to halyards, or perhpas one could say it is uncommon to use a thimble here, there is a redution in halyard eye lifespan and ultimate strength from the tight radius the line must turn, much tighter than in any knot.

Have Fun !

[allene]

I think I get it. The Dutch Hat covers the eye with the wings laid down over the other piece of cover, all whipped together right at the base of the eye. If this isn't right, I don't get it.

I am thinking that treating the line like a Class II double braid like Brian suggested (and I mentioned) will be my first attempt with this as my fallback. I do have the issue that my cover may be a little large and I may try and bury the LS core inside the Amsteel core to bulk it up at the eye. If I can figure out how to have that add to the strength, that may be good as well.

Allen

Originally Posted by Brion Toss

Hello,
Jeff had some good suggestions; I'll just add the possibility of a "Dutch Hat", which is a short piece of cover that the core is threaded through before splicing. The core goes in a couple of inches from one end, and out a couple of inches from the other. This results in a couple of little wings, hence the term.
If you also thread the core into a section of cover before splicing, you'll have a cover for the standing part near the end. Typically we'll pull on 4 to 6 feet, with the core going in about a foot from the standing part side, so you will have a tail to bury later.
When both pieces of cover are on, make your splice. Then slide the standing part cover up as far as practicable, then taper the ears a bit and lay them down and serve or whip or tape over them. Finally, bury the cover tail in the standing part.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[allene]

I made a short section of the inter core of the LS, just enough to cover the length of the splice, then a few inches of taper on each end. I buried that inside the amsteel where the splice was going to be leaving about a foot of amsteel beyond that to be buried. This was all covered by the LS outer braid. I then tucked the amsteel inside itself through the outer LS cover and along side the inner braid tail. The amsteel was lock stitched at the point of the splice then everything buried inside the LS cover. What an absolute bitch to bury. Way too tight. If I had it to do over again, I would either leave out the inner core, or tail it off more quickly so that there wasn't so much mass at the splice. The other end of the LS cover wasn't such a problem. I buried it inside the amsteel. There was no way in hell to bury the LS cover at the splice so I wrapped everything and tied it off. It worked but took at least an hour to do. Net time I leave out the LS core and bury the LS cover long enough to add some strength from the cover. I think that is a better way to go.

Oh, at the point that the winch and cleat are, I covered the amsteel with the LS cover and buried the ends in the amsteel. That worked great with the 7/16 LS over the 1/4 amsteel.

Cheers,

Allen

[mrgnstrn]

Originally Posted by Brion Toss

Hello,
Jeff had some good suggestions; I'll just add the possibility of a "Dutch Hat", which is a short piece of cover that the core is threaded through before splicing. The core goes in a couple of inches from one end, and out a couple of inches from the other. This results in a couple of little wings, hence the term.
If you also thread the core into a section of cover before splicing, you'll have a cover for the standing part near the end. Typically we'll pull on 4 to 6 feet, with the core going in about a foot from the standing part side, so you will have a tail to bury later.
When both pieces of cover are on, make your splice. Then slide the standing part cover up as far as practicable, then taper the ears a bit and lay them down and serve or whip or tape over them. Finally, bury the cover tail in the standing part.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

You gotta post a picture of this! Where in your book do you show us how to do this?

-KM