Bungee Cord Splice, Is there such a thing?

[pyrofly73]

I have rigged the running backstays on my Creekmore 34 cutter with high tech line spliced directly to stem balls and dropped into the Isomat spreader bases. The runners are lead to the aft corners of the boat through blocks and to the Lewmar 46 self-tailing winches. Although I am pleased with the outcome of this project I saw a modification that I would like to make to the system.

In the book " Offshore Sailing" by Bill Seifert & Daniel Spur they describe a system of making the backstays self retracting by using a bungee and a few small blocks.
The system is basically a bungee with one end attached at the lower spreaders it then comes down to the deck and through a small turning block attached to a stanchion base just aft of the mast. The other end of the bungee has a another small block through which the runner passes. In theory when you tighten the running back the bungee stretches and once you loosen it the bungee returns to it's no- stretched position an thereby retracts the runner.

Seems pretty clever and should avoid some trips forward in nasty weather. Any real world experience with this system? Also is there a nice clean way to splice bungee cord? I think it's important that it not only works well but looks good too.

Hope to hear from you guys.

Xavier

[Brian Duff]

1) A bungee cord is splice by doubling back on itself to form and eye, and then secureing by a metal clip called a 'hog ring' or by 'clapping' on a seizing - the latter is our prefered method.
2) A stemball eye dropped into the aft stemball socket on an isomat spreader base will not allow a fair lead to the running backstay as so may (likely?) crack the cast aluminum spreader base
3) The system you suggest for runner retracting may work, however bungee cord has a very short life when exposed to UV - i will suggest that instead of some bungee and blocks aloft, you set up a deck lead retracting system.

This is usually done by securing a small single blocks to the base of the aft lower shrouds (or a seperate block on deck) and leading a line from the runner working end, through this block near the chainplates, then back to the cockpit with a cam cleat, clutch or horn cleat. These allow you to set and deploy the runners from the cockpit, work without fail, and are strong enough to hold your runners even if they are of cable.

as HE says, Fair Leads!

[pyrofly73]

1. Good idea with the seizing. Sounds quick and easy. Do you sew both ends together prior to applying the seizing. Are there instructions for the seizing you mention in Brion Toss' Rigger's Apprentice or else where?

2.Good point about the fair lead on the spreader base. From the deck it looks fine, but I'm going climbing this weekend to see it up close an personal.

3.I like your idea, but am hesitant to put more holes on the deck for cam cleats and such. And the system is now not "automatic" but requires hauling on another line. As a south Florida/Bahamas sailor 90% of my sailing will not require running backs. I think I could set up the bungees prior to offshore passages, and remove them when not in use. How short of a lifespan are we talking about.

Xavier

[CJV]

Originally Posted by pyrofly73

I have rigged the running backstays on my Creekmore 34 cutter with high tech line spliced directly to stem balls and dropped into the Isomat spreader bases. The runners are lead to the aft corners of the boat through blocks and to the Lewmar 46 self-tailing winches. Although I am pleased with the outcome of this project I saw a modification that I would like to make to the system.

In the book " Offshore Sailing" by Bill Seifert & Daniel Spur they describe a system of making the backstays self retracting by using a bungee and a few small blocks.
The system is basically a bungee with one end attached at the lower spreaders it then comes down to the deck and through a small turning block attached to a stanchion base just aft of the mast. The other end of the bungee has a another small block through which the runner passes. In theory when you tighten the running back the bungee stretches and once you loosen it the bungee returns to it's no- stretched position an thereby retracts the runner.

Seems pretty clever and should avoid some trips forward in nasty weather. Any real world experience with this system? Also is there a nice clean way to splice bungee cord? I think it's important that it not only works well but looks good too.

Hope to hear from you guys.

Xavier

You should be able to bury the bungee in the core of the runner and stitch it in place.
Have seen a similar system but one that pulls the runners back to the backstay instead of down along the shrouds. It worked pretty well, until the bungees wore away. Now the runners flap about and, once, caught the boom, preventing the main from fully jibing and spinning the boat madly-- there were some very confused looks on the crew as the rail suddenly buried!

[Stumble]

Since you don't envision using your runners very often, this is the system I have used for years on a J-130.

We took the runners and spiced in an eye about one foot shorter than the distance from where they attach to the mast to the base of the mast. Then attach a short line to the base of the mast up to the eye. This allowes the runners to be kept normally stowed right at the base of the mast.

To deploy the runners we then just attached the eye to a shackle on the moving part of the runners attached at the back of the boat. This can be any system you prefer, for the size of the boat.


This system allowes quick deployment as well as keeping everything out of the way except when you actually want to use them.

[Brian Duff]

"south Florida/Bahamas sailor 90% of my sailing will not require running backs"

this kind of statement is heard way too often, and implies perhaps a misunderstanding of what runners are for. Of course, this depends on the type of boat, or really type of rig, you have. Runner use has more to do with wind strength and sail shape and mast bending on MOST boats.

What kind of boat/rig are we talking about ?

[Neptunes Violin]

Hey there Pyrofly:

Please please come back here and post your findings. I too am planning the same thing with stemballs dropped into isomat spreader bases. I thought it was a wicked idea, but now not so sure.

Personally, i would throw the bungee cords overboard. I have used bungee on deck for minor stuff. It doesn't last more than half a season. The sun cooks it to death.

I am not sure how best to stow the runners when they are not in use. I am leaning to coiling them on the rail/lifeline close to the sidestays. I am a cruiser so all that quick-release stuff is not important to me. The runners and new inner forestay will be solely for storm gear.

[Neptunes Violin]

PS:

I like Stumble's idea. No reason you cannot break the runner into two pieces. So when not in use, the "upper half" is secured at the mast base.

When required, you take "lower half", connect it to the upper half and it's done.

Of course, there is the added expense of the splice fittings

[pyrofly73]

Brian D: What kind of boat/rig are we talking about ?
the boat is a creekmore 34' cutter.
deck stepped mast is ng60 54' from the deck to the masthead.
double spreaders @15' and 30' above deck
boom nb40
both headsails on roller furling(profurl)
main 2 reefs using isomats inboom single line reefing.

I bought this boat in pieces and have been rigging and building her for the past 2 years. the boat was never rigged prior to my purchase so the mast is a brand new. It was in storage for 20+ years while the previous owner gave up on the project. All the standing rigging and running rigging is new. I am now getting close to going for my first sail. I expect delivery of my 2 head sails for Xmas The new main is sitting in its new sail cover. I don't expect much use of the running backs because I so far have been a fair weather sailor on my Morgan 30 (sloop = no running backs). I expect to use the running backs on the creekmore if my mast pumps and when running under reefed main and stay sail alone. My boat is also unique in that my mast is an isomat, every other creekmore i have seen had a home made mast that bends like spaghetti I think the isomat is far more rigid and should alleviate pumping.

Do I have the wrong Idea as to what runners are for?


Neptues violin: Posting my findings.
I originally was thinking of attaching tangs for the running backs, but after much thought It seemed silly to attach something else to the mast when i had spreader bases with holes that were obviously meant to be used. The splicing was straight forward. directly to the stemball eyes (navtec). The eyes have a nice 1/2" hole. I used 7/16" stayset x plus that is now discontinued. hopefully this line will not stretch too much for the purpose, if not amsteel it will be. I feel like you about runners for stormy conditions If its more than 4' seas and 15 kts I usually go bass fishing or stick to the bay :-D, My theory is that i want them in case I'm in the middle of the gulf stream on my way to Bimini and am stuck in less than favorable conditions.

If it's not blowing like crazy this weekend I will take my fat butt up the mast and check out how the stemball eyes look with the runners in the tensioned position. I'll let you know if it looks out of wack. I'm worried about cracking my spreader bases too after i read brians first reply. (it made a lot of sense)

Stumble's idea:
what you describe sounds exactly like what other creekmores that I have seen have set up. The only difference is that they put the eye about 6' up and then have a purchase 4:1 or 6:1 (not sure) to tighten the runners. when not being used they take the runners either to the mast or to the rail outboard of the mast and use the purchase to keep them in check. Omitting the purchase and attaching a line that I could take to the winches would work fine, BUT the runners are not self retracting. I have tried to rig my boat to avoid trips forward (single line reefing, roller furling, etc) It would be nice if the runners tended to themselves as well. 2 trips forward for every tack in less than nice weather doesn't sound fun to me.

CJV
I love the bury idea, but it will be impossible to replace the bungee after it rots. If i was using something like amsteel maybe, but in stayset x plus I would have to replace the line...
I can picture your gybing incident. I'll make sure to keep my eye on the runners and insure full retraction prior to course changes. (GOOD TIP)

I'll check back next week and post my findings on the stemball eyes. If any of you are interested in my project look for "creekbuild" on myspace there are lots of pics to see the progress.

have a great weekend,

Xavier

[Brion Toss]

Hi all,
This is the kind of question that tends to devolve into mush, as we are actually talking about several things, including:
Ways to retract the runners automatically;
Ways to retract them manually;
Lifespan of bungy cord;
Methods of terminating bungy cord;
Runner configuration for stowage;
Runner tang configuration;
and General runner usage.
And we haven't finished spinning off yet, as the topic of HM pendants, stripped runners, tackle-vs-winch power, etc. have yet to be broached.
All very lovely, but I don't think we are addressing anything fully. So in the interests of thread sanity, I'll just address the original question about automatic retrieval via bungy: don't do it. Bright idea, and it will probably work for, oh, upwards of half an hour, but as noted above the stuff just doesn't last long. And even if it did, it's a fairly elaborate solution in search of a problem; even on big traditional boats with heavy wire pendants and massive blocks, runners can be easy to tame with light tricing lines. It's all a matter of good leads and quick on-off belays. And with HM and no blocks it's almost not worth bothering to trice, as the stuff tends to just get out of the way on the leeward side. But if you do add tricing lines, lead them to PX cleats handy to the winch. Quick little things.
Also, except on extreme rigs, mostly fractional, you will likely be using your runners a minority of the time (though more than 10%). If you have frequent need, it implies a rig tweezy enough to be worth the effort of tending.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss