Mast Steps

[Brion Toss]

Hello,
After hearing way too many tragic "bounce" stories having to do with better steps than these, I am in no way in favor of your design. It's hard to know where to start, but let's go with the matter of so-far-universal approval from people who have tried them. Unless every one of those who have tried them has a meaningful basis of reference, their opinion isn't exactly valuable. So basically you are exposing ignorant people to real danger.
Then there's the matter of lack of a positive outer stop. Even with anti-skid, it is going to be far too easy to slip off of these steps. And then there's the number of screws or rivets (2) holding them on. More fasteners are a bother, but they are also reassuringly redundant, and they distribute the unavoidable long-term shear loads nicely.
Mast steps have been around for a long time, long enough for people to understand the above points, and more; the best designs reflect this knowledge. Yours don't.
I just installed 4 mast steps today, down low, to enable the owners to reach the head of the mains'l. The steps were the fold-down kind, with rough tread and an outboard keeper. Tomorrow I'll be installing 2 more, about 4.5ft down from the masthead, as a place to stand once one gets up there using a bosun's chair. I believe that any other use even for good mast steps is hazardous in too many instances. So I agree with a comment above that if you must install steps all the way up, that you always also use a harness with some form of fall arrest.
"It's just like climbing a ladder", people will say. Yeah, a medieval ladder, with the upright running up the middle. A skinny, slick aluminum ladder that is waving in the air in often unpredictable ways.
So while I commend your interest in doing things cheaply and simply, it is not always possible to do so and still approach anything like safety. Your steps are a case in point.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[Ian McColgin]

Thank you Brion. I started a reply that even cited your oft repeated remark about poles for ladders - I called it a stick with nails on each side - but the whole bit was too intemperate so I didn't send. I think your remarks strike the right balance of encouraging people to try stuff but discouraging positivly dangerous ideas.

The one thing I'd add is that there could be a liability issue if you make something for others and, using it as intended and claimed and forseeable, they are hurt.

G'luck all

Ian

[davidsamuelson]

As Brion says "some kind of fall arrest" Thats fine if you are going up in flat water but don't kid yourself that it is the answer to making your steps safe. Going back to the rolling situation, how would you fare swinging on a halyard when you come off your steps half way up. Now we are really in trouble. David

[Bob Pingel]

Hi Brion-

What brand of step are you using these days?

Thanks,

Bob Pingel

[mholmes]

thanks again to all for your comments (even the unnecessarily intemperate ones).

If any of you are in the san francisco bay area, or happen to visit the bay area, you are welcome anytime to stop by and try out our steps firsthand. Perhaps your opinion may differ if you try them out yourself, as opposed to sight unseen. Or not! Either way, fair winds--and safety to all of us on our respectively differing masts . . .

regards,
matt

[JamHass]

This has been a great thread. Let me start by noting a couple of disclosures:
1. I am one of Matt's satisfied customers
2. I am a former rock climber
3. (Contrary to Matt's statement) I'm over 60 (thanks Matt!)

All that said, let me amplify Brion's (and other's) cautions that some form of fall protection is necessary, and that applies to any mast steps. In my opinion, ALL one can ask of any mast steps is to make the task of getting up there less strenuous, and that alone makes it safer. I climbed my mast many times before installing Matt's steps, and I've tried probably all methods, from hand-over-hand to prussiks & Jumars, and several rigs and proprietary methods. None are as easy as steps, and Matt's work very well.

I noticed a comment that the two screws/rivets might not be sufficient. I am an engineer, and I'm not concerned. The load will always be static, limited to the climbers weight, and on the order of 10% of the shear strength of 2 1/4-inch screws. I have cleats and other fittings held with 2 1/4 inch bolts threaded into the mast that take far greater loads.

The small size can be seen as an advantage: they certainly do NOT give you a false sense of security, so there is a very good chance the average sailor will actually use a proper belay.

All in all, I am very pleased with the results, and recommend them. With luck, the time I spent installing them will reduce the chance I'll need them "in anger" (fat chance.)

Jim

[Bluenose]

Originally Posted by JamHass

.....I noticed a comment that the two screws/rivets might not be sufficient. I am an engineer, and I'm not concerned. The load will always be static, limited to the climbers weight, and on the order of 10% of the shear strength of 2 1/4-inch screws. I have cleats and other fittings held with 2 1/4 inch bolts threaded into the mast that take far greater loads......Jim

Jim,

Obviously you have more installation experience with these than we do, but from the website pictures it really looks like a pair of aluminum pop rivets supporting the mast step.



I did some structural engineering in a past life as well and it wouldn't be the shear loads that would concern me. It would be the tension loads on the fasteners required to react the heel and toe moment cause by the climbers weight. I never really liked having pop rivets in shear, but I would never used them in tension.

And baring detailed dynamic loads, we always assumed a minimum dynamic amplification factor of 2. And I can think of a few scenarios where a factor greater than 1 would occur.

I don't know any actual dimensions but it appears that the width of the mast step is similar to the distance between the rivets and the bottom of the bracket (the heel and toe).



Therefor the loads on the fastener will be similar to the load of someone standing on the edge of the mast step. Add in a dynamic factor, say you slip off the step above and a 200 pound person could applied a tension load of a couple hundred pounds per rivet. And that is a real load for a 1/4 inch aluminum rivet. Nothing like the shear loads they experience holding a cleat to the boom (although I still prefer tapped screws here as well). Blind rivets just weren't designed to take tension.



I don't have a dog in this fight since my sailing priorities would negate mast steps as an option but I think Brion makes some pretty valid points and I would really look hard at any potential failure mechanisms since your life may depend on it.

Bill

[Auspicious]

With all due respect to the creativity of the designers, those things scare the bejeepers out of me. If one were to slip off and swing on the safety line the pain and injury from hitting one or more steps edge on when swinging back would be really awful.

Of course I don't think free-climbing a rock face is any fun either.

In my opinion the very best advance in getting to the masthead is an electric winch. The ride is steady and smooth and darn near peaceful. Further, for those of us that don't have gorillas to grind us up, you don't have to sit there and wait fruitlessly while your grinder rests.

sail fast, dave

[Ian McColgin]

Anyone who cruises extensivly will need a way all the way up sometime, likely in poor conditions with lots of breakage around. I'm a former rock climber myself and worked as a steeple jack, arborist and rigger so I have a lot of confidence about what I can climb. But when I was doing an artificial climb, I never relied on a cliff hanger if I could put in a nut. 'Nuff said to any climber.

[Douglas]

Gee Whiz ,,, in No uncertain Terms , I have to agree with Brion .

My knees get all woobly the further up I get from the deck ,,,,, I do need the bosun chair for support , while up - there , and the chair gives me the support, to enjoy the experience .

I like that you have an alternative "step" , to show , everyone , but , Gee, Gosh ,,, you are or must be a "tree climber" , from your youth,,,, now who was that who climbed , power poles, to prepare himself for a trip around the Horn ? Guess , you would qualify for that , too !

How many mast climbers have survived a fall to the deck , from aloft ?

So , glad that you "think" , outside the box ,,,, maybe others will , follow , you,,, too !


Douglas