braided dacron halyard -- twisting

[tanner]

Hello all.....I'm new to the group and live in Virginia. I converted my Camper and Nicholson 32 to a junk rigged schooner....I am having a problem with my halyards twisting. I've googled and no luck and thought I may get answers here. I tried searching before posting but no luck. Sorry if this topic has been brought up before.....
The braided line was purchase from a vendor on ebay (this could be the problem). It is 3/8" with 3-1 purchase. There are no swivels on the blocks. The yard angle is about 45*. The double block up top has the pin pointing in towards the mast. I brought the halyard back to the cockpit through two deck blocks and one bullseye. From the very beginning, I noticed the line twisting. It wasn't bad at first but without fail, after the sail is hauled up, the line in the cockpit has kinks and you can see the twists in the parts. I replaced the line on the fore....same vendor and still have the problem. Same on the main. I have tried taking the twists out but no luck.....
I have not had this problem before using 3 strand and heard that braided wouldn't kink. Is there such a thing as 'seconds' in the roping industry? Could my problem be because the vendor is buying the end of spools or seconds???
Thanks for any help or advice

[marujo.sortudo]

I'm not sure if this would apply in your case, but I have a captive, braided halyard. Being that the end won't let any twist out of easily, I have to coil the halyard with alternating twist. Basically, each other coil goes behind the leading end by getting a 1/4 turn in the opposite direction. This way, no twist builds in the rope. This is less of an issue with 3 strand, but if you're feeding twist into the system in the same direction, it will build up over time.

[tanner]

Hi...thanks for reply and suggestion. I don't coil the halyards but have been makiny them up by making figure eight loops in my palm. Then when I drop the sail I just drop the bundle on deck. When lowered, there is enough to make off onto the cleat and not much more. So I'm wondering if there are 'seconds' available for resale, are they rejects because they just have the twist built in???
Thanks again.

[knuterikt]

Originally Posted by tanner

Hi...thanks for reply and suggestion. I don't coil the halyards but have been makiny them up by making figure eight loops in my palm. Then when I drop the sail I just drop the bundle on deck. When lowered, there is enough to make off onto the cleat and not much more. So I'm wondering if there are 'seconds' available for resale, are they rejects because they just have the twist built in???
Thanks again.

What kind of core does your new halyard have, braid or laid?

[tanner]

Originally Posted by knuterikt

What kind of core does your new halyard have, braid or laid?

I'll have to check....I think braid. Would that make a differance? Also when I'm making up the line after the sail is hauled up, I;ve been starting at the cleat and laying the the fig. 8's....I usually don't have problems with it running out when I lower the sail but when I haul it up, you can see the parts starting to twist, in fact it was noticable after the first couple of times when I first rigged her. In fact, I wasn't making the halyard up while testing....I was just hauling and lowering the sail..... I was looking at the Junk Rig Bible and they use braided and suggest coiling it clockwise. If its going in a bag instead of hanging on a cleat they start at the bitter end and begin faking it into the bag....so if I'm faking it in my hand and starting at the cleat would that be the cause??? thanks for any help.

[Brion Toss]

Hello,
First, make sure that your figure-8's are not in fact inducing twists: start with a twist-free rope, coil it, stretch it out, then sight along its length to see if it has twists in it.
If it doesn't, anchor one end of the rope to something solid, and pull on the other end (or some distance away from the first end), and sight along it; if the problem is in the rope, it will show up when you tension the rope.
The site you refer to was deeply mistaken to recommend clockwise coiling -- and counterclockwise would be just as bad -- but neither one is likely to produce dramatic problems, at least in the short term, so my money is on unbalanced rope. Let us know what you find out.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[Joe Henderson]

Tanner,

Why do you think it is called a junk rig.



Does the whole purchase twist when the yard is down and there is no load on it?

If the twists went in from the first then you may have a foul lead on one of the blocks.

If one of the blocks tilts while the line is being hauled through under not much load, then the line may contact the side plates of the bollock and induce a twist.

If this is happening then re-reeving the line in a different pattern may improve things. leading the line square with the blocks at 90degrees often helps.

Is the rope too big for the blocks?

Whatever you do, the ebay rope will probably remain twisted.

There is a lot of absolute crap rope on the market and you will get what you pay for.

Never buy rope for anything other than tying up parcels if you can not see, touch and smell it.

Always spend enough on rope to induce eye watering and always buy 20 % more than you think you need.

Pictures of the offending purchase open and closed will help diagnosis.

Joe.

[tanner]

Originally Posted by Brion Toss

Hello,
First, make sure that your figure-8's are not in fact inducing twists: start with a twist-free rope, coil it, stretch it out, then sight along its length to see if it has twists in it.
If it doesn't, anchor one end of the rope to something solid, and pull on the other end (or some distance away from the first end), and sight along it; if the problem is in the rope, it will show up when you tension the rope.
Brion Toss

Thanks for the reply Brion. I have some 3/8's that I purchased from the same vendor for the main halyard....hasn't been used so I will do like you suggested. I'll report back.

All the best....

[tanner]

Originally Posted by Joe Henderson

Tanner,

Why do you think it is called a junk rig.

Educate me.... I've had a lot of people say nice things about my 'junk'

Does the whole purchase twist when the yard is down and there is no load on it?

Not sure I follow....there are no swivels. Only the lines passing thru the blocks are twisting.

If the twists went in from the first then you may have a foul lead on one of the blocks.

The first time I made the halyards up before stepping the mast. Then when I replaced the fore with smaller line and 3-1 purchase, I made it up on deck and went aloft to attach.

If one of the blocks tilts while the line is being hauled through under not much load, then the line may contact the side plates of the bollock and induce a twist.

I've considered this as well and could be possible. I've used my binos to have a look and it looks like may just be doing that....

If this is happening then re-reeving the line in a different pattern may improve things. leading the line square with the blocks at 90degrees often helps.

Don't follow....the double up top has the pin athwartship and at first I had the single on the yard doing the same. Then I changed the lower so it was 90* from the upper...didn't notice any improvement. Is this what you mean?

Is the rope too big for the blocks?

Well the blocks do look small but they are made for 3/8's...going to a larger block was something I am considering
Someone from another forum suggested hanging two singles up top instead of a double. This may be an option??? Thoughts anybody???

Whatever you do, the ebay rope will probably remain twisted.

Without a doubt
Thanks for the input....

[Joe Henderson]

Tanner,

1. Rigger humour.

2.So the twists remain in the purchase when open?

3.But there may still be a foul and unfair lead to one of the sheaves in one of the blocks, this is all it takes to impart a twist to the line as it travels.

4.See 3. above.

5. Broadly, yes. try to get the parts travelling over the sheaves in opposite directions.
ie up and away from you in one top sheave, down and across in one bottom sheave, up and towards you in one top sheave - repeat as needed to fill the purchase.

6. Big blocks, correct size line, fair leads always. Pictures will help. Also whose blocks are you using?

7. Replace the twisted line. Make sure you actually get 3/8 " Manufacturers sizing romps wildly from one end of the tolearance to the other with no regard for consistency. Take a block in to the chandlery and try the line for fit.

If the boat is the size you say, and the rig divided in two, you may be able to get away with 5/16 in the same blocks.

Joe.