Spare halyard--what's the best line?

[JohnV]

I've got masthead sheaves for 3 halyards, so want to rig a light-weight line in the spare.
The boat is a heavy, 33-ft cruiser and I use 7/16" and 3/8" sta-set x for my halyards.
I'm not planning to use the spare as a topping lift, but instead for a potential emergency halyard, or for hauling heavy items aboard, or maybe for a trysail halyard at some point.
What's the best stuff to use in the third set of shaves for now? I've thought of simply using a 1/8" nylon messenger.
But then I wondered if something a little stronger would be better, so I could haul, say, my dinghy aboard with it--like maybe 1/4" double braid?
Then I figure, why not just splurge on a small-diameter high-modulus line that will be thin and light but strong enough to use as a halyard in a pinch if need be?
What do others do or suggest?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
John V.

[Stumble]

John,

There are two restrictions that you have to look at, so you really have to decide.

The real issue is that you need a line of some breaking strength, and assuming sta-set x at 3/8 works, well work with those numbers. Assuming you need 120' of line (40' assumed mast height x 3) that means that the sta is going to run around $140 for the line. Not bad really, but let's take a look at high tech lines and see what they cost would be.

To go to 3/8 amsteel blue, which is my current favorite for 120' at 3/8 you would spend around $330. But the line is roughly four times as strong 19,600lbs vs 5,500lbs breaking strength. And the amsteel will stretch a fraction of the sta-set at working loads.

If instead of sizing for diameter you size for breaking strength you actually save money. Since the same strength amsteel would only run about $110. But it would only be 3/16 which may be to small for your jammers, and can be hard to handle.

The last option is to go to endura braid or similar, which is a amsteel core, with a sacrificial cover. When sized for strength you either have to go down to 4,000lbs 1/4" or go up to 7,000lbs 5/16" which would cost $156 and $230 respectively.

Finally you could go to endura braid, but taper the line, which leaves the core uncovered for the working portion (inside the mast). This is fine for halyards since the tail of the line won't carry much load when hoisting sails, and it is really only when up that it takes much load, but not so good when the line will be used for lifting dingies since the first 20' or so of lift relies just on the empty cover. It does however allow you to buy less line and can save money for something that is just a halyard. Basically by stripping the halyard you only need to buy 2/3 the amount of line you otherwise would, while keeping the same working characteristics. Since the loaded portion of the line is just from the top of the mast down to the spin locks.


Personally all my my halyards are tapered endura braid, except the spare jib which is solid amsteel blue. This allows me to have one 'working line' for sending people to the top of the rig, and hauling, while at the same time keeping costs reasonable for the boat. but I also designed this from the ground up, and have a racing boat, so cost is a little less of an issue than for most cruisers.

In addition to cost however the amsteel is a much more flexible line, and stretched much less under loads. So sail trim and halyard tension is easier to get right, and you get less stretch as the wind picks up. The relative value of this is your call though.

[JohnV]

Thanks for that reply, Stumble.
With external halyards, the tapered endura idea may not be best.
I guess I'm over-analyzing this, trying to get some utility out of a temporary messenger line and still benefit from its small size. The benefits diminish with compromise, though.
I'm probably best off with quarter-inch dacron double braid--something that will handle moderate weight if I need it to, will work on a winch, and still be a lot smaller than 7/16" sta-set x.
I don't expect to have to reeve a replacement halyard with it very often, if ever.
Thanks for the logical treatment of the options.
John

[Stumble]

I would point out that the use of the line as an external halyard doesn't really change the calculus much when dealing with dyneema. It is almost impervious to uv degradation, and chaff.

Personally I won't use Dacron for much of anything, since it stretches a ton, and has a poor lifespan due to uv damage, and age weakening. Plus it looses strength when wet... It just seems a poor material for use in marine environments. I would go with at least sta-set since it holds up better.

The other thing I didn't mention is expected lifespan. It has been years since I bought sta-set, but as I remember it gets really stiff and hard to manipulate after just a couple of seasons. My amsteel halyards are still supple and soft after 4 years in the sun (new Orleans area). I keep checking them for replacement, but I haven't seen any degradation that indicates replacement is imminent.

[JohnV]

It's very tempting, and undoubtedly would be a very satisfactory system. But to stay with your earlier points about cost/benefit, I'd be springing for 90-odd freet of Dyneema, in a size thick enough to grip, as a seldom-used spare, but using sta-set x with its relative stretch for the main halyard. I'd want to swap, and then I'd be back to having a fat, heavy dacron line as a spare, which I'm trying to avoid in the first place.
And 2 times 90 feet is costly and hard to justify on a heavy cruising boat. Especially when Mr. genoa halyard starts to get jealous.
And as I think about it, I'll still have the 3/8" spinnaker and staysail halyards, so maybe just a thin, cheap messenger is really the way to go.
Thanks for your ideas.
John

[allene]

Originally Posted by JohnV

It's very tempting, and undoubtedly would be a very satisfactory system. But to stay with your earlier points about cost/benefit, I'd be springing for 90-odd freet of Dyneema, in a size thick enough to grip, as a seldom-used spare, but using sta-set x with its relative stretch for the main halyard. I'd want to swap, and then I'd be back to having a fat, heavy dacron line as a spare, which I'm trying to avoid in the first place.
And 2 times 90 feet is costly and hard to justify on a heavy cruising boat. Especially when Mr. genoa halyard starts to get jealous.
And as I think about it, I'll still have the 3/8" spinnaker and staysail halyards, so maybe just a thin, cheap messenger is really the way to go.
Thanks for your ideas.
John

90 feet of 3/8 XLS = $77 => 4,400 pound strength, 3.2 inches stretch
50 feet of 3/16 Amsteel = $28
50 feet of 3/8 Tenex (use white) $20
Total $48 => 5,400 pounds strength, .82 inches stretch.

Splice http://L-36.com/halyard.php
Stretch calculator http://L-36.com/line_stretch.php

Enjoy.

Notes:
Size it so that you have a couple of turns of Amsteel on the winch with the splice below.

If you are concerned about the splice, do 90 feet of Amsteel and 50 feet of Tenex for less cost (slightly) than the XLS but much less stretch and much less weight aloft.

I did not figure out the splice before building my halyard using method 2. It works great. My next halyard will be method 1. The advantage of method 2 is that the line is about 7/16 but I find it a bit more than I need so next time I will just let the tenex be 3/8 without the Amsteel core.

But be sure to use white tenex because, like Amsteel, the colors come off on your hands.

Allen
L-36.com

[JohnV]

More good choices. This was supposed to be an easy decision...
Thanks for the ideas, Allen. I'll check out the references you gave me.
John

[Dan Lehman]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Personally I won't use Dacron for much of anything, since it stretches a ton, and has a poor lifespan due to uv damage, and age weakening. Plus it looses strength when wet... It just seems a poor material for use in marine environments. I would go with at least sta-set since it holds up better.

You must have mis-typed, and mean "nylon" vice "Dacron"
--for what you cite is true only of the former, not the latter.

As for the imperviousness of HMPE to UV degradation, I've read
conflicting accounts of that, including tests of quick-draws used
by rockclimbers left on climbs showing more strength loss than
similarly exposed nylon ones (!).

--dl*
====

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Dan Lehman

You must have mis-typed, and mean "nylon" vice "Dacron"
--for what you cite is true only of the former, not the latter.

As for the imperviousness of HMPE to UV degradation, I've read
conflicting accounts of that, including tests of quick-draws used
by rockclimbers left on climbs showing more strength loss than
similarly exposed nylon ones (!).

--dl*
====

Dan,

Thanks for the correction.

You are right that some HMPE lines can't take any uv at all, but the new crop of dyneema lines can. It is a different material, and has different characteristics than some others. Vectran for instance has limited uv stability, PBO and Zylon as well have limited uv stability.

However dyneema, specifically amsteel and it's family of lines is highly uv stable, and suitable for uncovered use outdoors. Long term uv studies are still continuing, but the current recommended replacement interval for standing rigging made from dyneema is 6-8 year, as compared to 8 years for stainless steel rigging. My lifelines are going on four years, and still look new, I haven't destruction tested them, but they are still strong enough to break the welds on my bow and sterm pulpit before the line broke.

My halyards are also four years old, and I have yet to see any noticeable degradation on them, though I am thinking of switching out one of them and doing a destruction test just to see. Sadly I don't have a load cell or testing rig strong enough to really stress the line.

[Dan Lehman]

Originally Posted by Stumble

If instead of sizing for diameter you size for breaking strength you actually save money. Since the same strength amsteel would only run about $110. But it would only be 3/16 which may be to small for your jammers, and can be hard to handle.

There is one point to be made here, echoing Brion's long-ago (2001?) SAIL
article warning of such specious calculations : the "strength" of hi-mod lines
is typically given for spliced lines and is significantly less than this when
knotted.

How amenable to using a (pre-made) splice is the intended use as
"a potential emergency halyard, or for hauling heavy items aboard,
or maybe for a trysail halyard at some point"?
Answer & figure by that (among other concerns).

--dl*
====